Howdy cousin!

If you are sincere and you are really searching for God

Maybe I'm getting senile. Other posters that may read this - is there another OckhamsRazor posting stuff somewhere on JU?

It's not something you put into a beaker and observe Ock.

Meaning it can't be proven? Then stop saying it's a fact. Say you believe it and have unyielding faith, but don't say it's a fact unless you add "to me".

Now, that's a science experiment.

No, it isn't. See Zoo's more than kind explanation of scientific method on your blog.

You know that cop show with Carroll O'Conner?

I don't watch network TV (when I have it - I don't even have it here in Italy). My television choices are pretty much limited to PBS, Discovery Channel, Sci-Fi network (rarely), Comedy Channel. My wife likes the cooking channel - I only like one show on it - Good Eats with Alton Brown. Guess why?

it doesn't quite work like that. So if that's your criteria...it ain't going to happen.

I know that. I was using an extreme to make a point.

By the way, I keep forgetting to mention because there are always so many other things to say - Yes, I went to the AiG site. I didn't see anything particular there that was noteworthy, but I'll read specific things if you want me to. It seems to be mostly "Gap Science" Which is the nature of YECs contention with evolution. Here's a species found living X years ago. Here's a different species it evolved into X / 2 years ago. Creationist says "Well, you'll have to find the transitional fossil between the two for me to believe that." So the evolution scientist does. Now we have three species. X , X/2, and X + X/4. Now the creationist wants the fossil between X and X + X/4. And so on and so on. You could find 10,000 transitional fossils between X and X / 2, and the Creationist would just say that there are 10,000 gaps not filled with a transitional fossil to explain it.

Here's a Christian site for you. I just stumbled on this last night, and while I don't agree with everything there, and you will surely disagree with everything there, it won't hurt you to look at it. It's a discussion (basically) about science and Christianity living together. You could start with this article about Morton's Demon.

Those might be wise words to think of for yourself......

and yourself as well Karma.

I spend alot of time dodging flying flaming arrows around here and you are one that loves to shoot them my way as well as anybody.



well some have...some haven't. Most that I've met....have not. I know a couple of what I like to call born-again Catholics. They are different. They have a great love for Christ as Savior. Many are born into it and go thru the motions. They love their church but do they love Christ? Not so sure. It's individualistic.

Both of our families are totally Catholic. Most don't even go to church. Those that do have nothing outside of thier half hour on Saturday night. I was brought up Catholic. There's a reason I'm not there now. My husband was saved at 30 years of age by finally recognizing Christ as more than he was taught as Catholic. We did not belong to any denomination at the time. This has nothing to do with religion LW.



Because that's part of my old life. I do on occasion bring stuff up but I don't dwell on these things. I wasn't a "bad" person as far as the world was concerned. I didn't do the "bad" stuff so some would might say..."what's the big deal?" I was the teenager that went to the pot parties and drinking parties and abstained. But actually I think hate, selfishness, pride, anger are much worse than taking a drink or smoking a butt. People that are the closest to me over the years have commented how much I have changed so it's not just me "feeling" like I've changed. I know I have.



Well I have admitted mistakes. Yes, I have. Uncharitable? Well I try not to be. Actually I did mention something at least once. My very first article on JU would qualify there. So I guess I have. That was an article about walking past a homeless person without helping her at first. Usually I'm the type LW that would give my shirt away if I saw someone with no shirt. I don't (and I've said this before) brag about my charity. I might brag on my kids here and there but I don't brag on me.

Meanspirited? I'm not. I suppose we all do mean things on occasion but it's not part of my nature to be mean. Quite often in person, I'll clam up rather than offend somebody when I have the opportunity to say something that is totally contrary to what they are saying. Especially if they don't know me and know my heart.

Sarcastic? Yes, I can be that but usually only to those I think can handle it. So if I'm sarcatic towards you, then I must feel you can take it.

LW...please believe me...I've said this before...I don't have struggles. REally. My life is struggle free right now. Much of that is because of my life in Chrsit. That's why I want what I have for others. Even on my down days which are not frequent at all, I still trust that God is taking care of things. I don't worry.

The only fret or discouragment I have is the fact that Satan is alive and well and blinding those I am in contact with. I get frustrated with that. I have a gift of discernment and prophecy (not the kind that foretells) that is a very frustrating gift to have. But even then, I do trust God. I just wish I could help others more than I do.

But LW...I can't make up stuff. I'm pretty honest. I'm not one to garner sympathy and cry on other's shoulders. That's just not me. I'm sorry I'm not real to you...because I've been told many times in person that one thing they like about me is I don't mince words and I say it like it is. Besides LW you have to admit, you make it darn hard. I've tried to extend the olive leaf to you many times and you've pushed my hand away. It doesn't really matter what I say, you'll find fault with me until you're good and ready (if ever) not to be contentious with me.

People trust that I'm going to give them a straight up answer, not necessarily one they want to hear. I believe truth demands confrontation. That's why I probably get in trouble around here...at least that's what I see. I'm not out to win any popularity contests. That's for sure...hahahah if so, I'm going about it all wrong.

I'm still trying to figure out how my grandson ended up with a blueish grey eyes. I have brown eyes. My husband has hazel green eyes. My son has brown eyes. His wife has hazel green eyes. So the baby has neither his mom's nor his dad's eyes nor mine or my husbands.

I know his maternal grandfather has bright blue eyes and I think his maternal grandmother has brown eyes. So this was a surprise to all of us who just thought he'd end up with brown eyes like most of his paternal family includng my parents.

With another child on the way, we look forward to seeing the color of this new grandbaby's eyes.

Did I ever mention how much I hate genetics...ugh. It's so boring.

Give me physiology or behavior any day.

~Zoo

Because that wasn't the point LW. The point was to show that God makes himself known to his own. He does this in a very clear way to remove any doubt. If this just happened once or twice, sure you could rationalize it away. Remember I'm a skeptic by nature. But I could write a book on these God things now. Many of them involve others so it's not a private just between me and God thing like believing I saw a unicorn that nobody else saw. Quite often others even if just one other are involved.

While I remember the verse, I don't remember the context of that day. This was probably 12 years ago. Something happened that day and as I was recounting this to my husband this scripture came up. I can't remember if I was angry or not (don't think so) and I can't remember if I was confused about it or not I just remember we both sat there and went "wow, that was cool."

I only gave that particular story because it was a short one. Most require long explanations as to the events surrounding the experience. We had one surrounding our decision to move here. Some of it I've written about. Maybe I'll just write the whole story out and blog on it sometime. It's pretty amazing and fresh on my mind now.

I try to answer every question. Some are just downright mean and argumentative so maybe that's what you see? As far as personal info, I won't answer rude demands for it. Why should I? How much do you know about Lula? You know much more about me than her...but yet I don't see you giving her the hard time you give me. The reason is you do know more about me. You just don't like what you see. I can't help that.

Think about it this way, at least I'm not trying to be liked by being a phoney...and I have seen that around here btw have you?



no disagreement from me....but just the way the teaching is if you had a roomful of each I'd go with the Baptists. Two reasons, the way that they're taught and my experience being around both....heck my money would really be on the Adventists. After 20 years of being in the tax business.....Adventists were by FAR the greatest givers. Did you know the Catholics are the worse? The Baptists are pretty good givers but not as much as the Adventists.



it all comes down to that doesn't it LW. I don't listen to you? Because you repeatedly keep bringing this up. I need to listen to you.



How many times do I have to say...it's not about Religion? I'm not a religionist. I'm equal opportunity here. I don't push any group. Not one nor do I bash one more than another. It's not about me being anti-Catholic or anti-Mormon or anti-anything. To me the church is made up of individuals no matter the affiliation as long as they have Christ as their God. That's it. No creeds, pillars or men to follow.

You don't seem to understand this LW...cuz I know I've brought this up repeatedly, but instead you focus on a particular word here and there I state usually in response to YOUR question.

It's like you bait, I answer and then you bash me for answering in a way that doesn't seem right to you.

Of course...but that's not how it comes across...not just with me but also with others. If they listen to you all goes well with them...if not, then be prepared for the wrath of LW's whip. That's how I see it.



Sometimes you can be helpful...but when you tell me constantly that I'm wrong and you're right it gets tiring. Let's just say we agree to disagree on certain subjects. Some of what you've asked me to do I've explained as to why I cannot or that I've already done so. But you don't seem to want to accept that.



well com'on LW...admit it. You know as well as I that's the mode you turn on around me. Half the time I think it's just an act. Only you can answer that.

I see us as totally opposites right down the line. Do you see the same? The funny thing LW is that I think we would be friends in real life. You remind me of a good friend I had in HS. We were opposites as well and when she got pregnant at 15 when we were sophomores, I helped take care of her baby so she could finish school.

So...you would assume that is not intentional?  I know exactly how people perceive me when I write- I've been participating in online communities for well over a decade.  I project myself the way I intend people to perceive me.  I have a feeling that you do not.

As I tell people in real life- I never said I was nice.  Sure, I will bend over backward to help somebody if need be, but I never pretend to be nice, and I don't hide behind a false persona.

No, I'm not assuming that.



well much more than I. You've got about 7 years on me.



Well now I know for sure. You never told me this before.



nice is nice...but I appreciate your honesty. I don't hide behind a false personna either. I like honesty and being upfront sometimes can be hard, at least I know where you're coming from.

KFC, I think maybe you aren't familiar with my use of the word 'projecting.'

In psychology, 'projecting' is when you incorrectly see in someone else something that is actually true about yourself. You have made broad sweeping generalizations about groups of people, and then when I, at least, have called you out on it, you say "well...all the ones *I* have met." Well there's a difference between "all the one's you have met" and "ALL."

So when you said I think ALL Christians were idiots, it seemed like projecting to me, because just the other day you posted a blog that made broad sweeping generalizations about ALL atheists. You may not have intended to do that, but by now you've noticed that I wasn't the only one to read it that way.

It is enlightening to see (if I'm doing my math right from the posts above) that you've only been forum-ing for 3 years. It's a tough medium with a diverse audience. I still struggle with writing clearly, and I've been posting on various forums since web browsers were all text based (circa 1993-4).

One thing I've learned is that in this medium, you can't state an opinion as a fact and get away with it. The audience is way too diverse, and they'll throw the bullshit flag in a heartbeat. (As I'm sure you've noticed )

You're talking about the atheistic talk on my site? That's the only thing I can remember you ever "called me on." So the sweeping generalization I've made is that an atheist (generally) doesn't believe in God so therefore he believes in the theory of evolution. And that's how I'm generalizing? I suppose you could be right and he just doesn't believe in either. Then I'd be generalizing because I left out this important group of Atheists. So that would give us an Atheist who doesn't think. Because there aren't many options here. You either believe in God or you don't. If you don't you have no other option but to believe in evolution unless you just don't think at all.

Again I'll say all the Atheists I've met believe in the theory of Evolution. But I'll admit maybe there are some atheists who just don't think about it at all. Ok? So where do you stand on this Ock? I'm going out on a limb but I'm going with the Evolution thing.....  

and I do know an opinion from fact Ock...that's why I said they were viewpoints......not definitions.

I do know an opinion from fact Ock...that's why I said they were viewpoints......not definitions.

Don't miss my intention here - it isn't to further our discussion of Christianity and atheism. It's to show you, someone who has only been communicating on the net for three years, that there are good ways and bad ways of getting your point across.

Suppose I presented an article on different religions, and I said:

1. Christianity. They follow monotheism with the son of god as the savior who paid for the sins of the world. Like Hitler, they're rigid in their belief. This religion gains adherents by threatening them with eternal damnation if they don't behave according to the laws god set down.

Is that true? Is it *presented* like I'm saying that it is true?

The first part is pretty good - if a bit oversimplified, but that's for the purpose of the example. The last part is an editorial on what *I* think. Since readership of the net is diverse, I have insured that my point will be missed by many by placing opinion alongside of fact and not qualifying one from the other. Many people will read "Hitler" and totally forget everything prior to it.

Again I'll say all the Atheists I've met believe in the theory of Evolution.

I'd say it would be a more true statement to say "Most atheists follow the Theory of Evolution." All of the atheists that *I* have met go by another name. Skeptic. And believe me, evolution does not get a "get out of jail free" card just because it makes some sense to them. If someone disproved Evolution tomorrow, and the evidence was indisputable, in 5 minutes, not one atheist would believe in evolution.

You either believe in God or you don't. If you don't you have no other option but to believe in evolution unless you just don't think at all.

Thanks for the example. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Paraphrased, 'If an atheist doesn't believe in god or evolution, then they just don't think at all.'

I only know enough about evolution to consider it an elegant possibility and one that seems to have a huge amount of objectively observable data to support it. I don't personally believe that evolution and God are mutually exclusive, and if you visited the site I linked, you'll see I'm not alone. Are all Christians fundamentalists? A resounding "no." So why would all atheists be evolutionists - and fundamentalists about it, at that?

For myself, I have no concern over cosmology in a grand sense, but it should be clear to you that I do think about it a lot - mainly because it's an interesting subject. So again, your generalization is untrue. I'm not sure you should be so cavalier about putting people in labeled boxes. Humans are quite diverse - some would say that this diversity is a good thing. Some others might wish we all thought the exact same way. Like robots.

Dude, there was a friggin' apostle who believed in evolution and the possibility of pre-Adamic races . . .

Oh B. H. Roberts. You're my hero.