Well, crap...now I can't see.

~Zoo

Just so long as you send the check to the golf club, you don't need to see.  

Nice, Ock. My parents taught me to think, too. It's the best way.

My kids are 2 years, and 10 months old. By simply not paying attention, one will knock the other over, etc. Should I not tell my son to pay attention to where he's going? Shouldn't I try to indoctrinate him into this, instead of letting him think it through on his own? Why should we wait, when harm could come from waiting?

I agree that people need to think for themselves, and that teaching them how to is very important. What I don't agree with is not sharing Jesus with them.

And I didn't mean to imply that Ock's kids actually do harm or anything, I was speaking of from birth, how long would you let them do harm before they figure out not to? That's the question, and it's more to make a point than to actually get an answer.

I suppose that depends on a person's personal definition of what "doing harm" is.  My children aren't doing any harm at all, to my knowledge.  See...I've only ever taught them one thing.  To think things out, and I've told them I support whatever conclusions they come to.  But they must be able to "show their work" (if you remember the familiar quote from math class).  Note:  I don't say they must show work which comes to a conclusion I have.

Here's an example so we don't go into a digression that isn't worthy of discussion.

My son, for quite some time, wanted to be a pilot.  Unfortunately, my son is also color blind, and this of course, would keep him out of any piloting program (be it air force or commercial or whatever.)  I talked ot him about this about a year ago, and he laughed and said "Yeah, but Dad, you can memorize the color blind test and pass it."

I let it go...for the moment.

Several people in my life said I should stop him.  I could not stand idly by while he cheated on a test which might endanger lives.  Well, of course I couldn't, and had if he had cheated on this test and passed it, I would have blown the whistle on him.  I do not wish to indoctrinate my children, but it would be a wrong of ME to allow him to do that because my enabling would have endangered lives.

So I waited...because I wanted him to come to this realization on his own.  I encouraged him to think.  He thought, and a couple of months ago came to the conclusion, on his own, that it would be a wrong thing to do.  This is exactly what I expected.  My son is a good young man, soon to be a good adult man.  I'm very proud of him.

Teaching right from wrong is not the same thing as indoctrination.  Part of the makeup of human beings is that they are helpless at young ages, and it is a matter of survival that they believe what they are told by their elders.  If they don't, they will come to more harm (potentially death) and sooner.  But many people abuse this.  The dust from the disintigrated bones lies scattered across New York City of two pilots who were indoctrinated to believe what they were told was true.  For them, Jythier, their truth was every bit as real as your own.

When it comes to any belief system, be it religion, politics, or whatever, it is a worthy question to ask "Would my child believe this if I hadn't taught it to them?"

If I ask any of you your religion or political affiliation and then disagree with it from any standpoint whatsoever, you will ultimately be forced to say "Well, Ock, it's my life and my decision.  You believe whatever you want.  I believe this."  Would you not?

But that doesn't apply to children, huh?  We gotta stack the deck on them and make sure they grow up good republicans, or good liberals, or good jews, or good catholics because WE have decided for OURSELVES that this is the right way to think.  Statistically speaking, some of you did come to your beliefs on your own, and some of you believe what you believe because you were taught to believe it at a young age.  There is a reason that there isn't a large number of "conversions" between political lines, and there is definitely a reason why you don't see lots of Islamic jihadists suddenly turning to Christianity (and vice versa).  The reason is indoctrination.

I must wonder how many people would believe what they believe had they not been indoctrinated themselves.  I wonder what the opinion of the people in the World Trade center would be on the subject...provided they were still around to have an opinion.

And yes, Zoo, that's what I was getting at.  I'm not suggesting people let their kids do swan dives into the lit fireplace so they can learn what it's like to be set on fire.

Gangs are full of kids whose parents didn't teach them what to believe in, so the kids found someone who would.

Hah, thought so.





Gangs are often the result of children who were neglected and given only minimal attention. They long for acceptance and a "family" like atmosphere. So then they seek it out and are in turn indoctrinated into that gang's values because to be in a gang you have to have all those oaths and hate towards your rivals and yadda yadda yadda.

Keep in mind, however, that we're talking about higher thinking here. It's not basic stuff like "Don't kill people." or "Hey, don't touch that it's hot."

It's "Hey, you should hate black people." "You should worship this God." "You should be a conservative." "Think every thing I do because I'm always right."

Ever wonder why some kids are little assholes and you have no idea where they get the stupid crap they spout off? Mommy and Daddy are feedin' that to them by the spoonful.

You know the Fred Phelps clan, right? Those kids are out there yelling about "fags" and they have no idea what that even means. That's the kind of bullshit that needs to stop.

~Zoo

AsaxyGirl:

My point is that it is important to teach them both. In fact, from about 15 or 16, the only thing a parent can really teach their kids is how to think for themselves. At that point, anything else the parent hopes to teach their kids has already been accepted or rejected by the kids.

At least that is how I see it.

Zoo:

True, but they are also getting if from teachers at school, other kids, music lyrics, tv shows, movies and anyone else they accept as worth listening to.

Kids rarely grow up to be carbon copies of their parents. Even in families where the kids were raised with specific religious, political or philosophical beleifs. I mean, it was the WWII generation that raised The Baby Booomers and the Baby Boomers raised Gen X. "Generational Drift" isn't a sociological term for nothing. ;~D



Yes, it is dangerous, but how do we stop it? Who gets to decide what is "teaching hate" and what isn't? Remember, to many The Boy Scouts, the U.S. Military and even the Republican and Democrat parties are "hate groups".

So, while I agree that some people teach their kids some very horrible things... where do we draw the line, and who gets to decide what you should and shouldn't be able to teach your kids?

Actually, it would be great if the parents of the children would draw the line.  If we as a society can promote free thinking, decision making...you know, common sense and stuff.  The perhaps more people would grasp the idea and run with it.  The greatest thing to ever teach a child is how to think and reason.

That's why I have a huge problem with schools today and those damned standardized tests.  That promotes memorization and nonthought.  There is no integration of material and expanded thinking.  It's "learn this and memorize it for a multiple choice test, and one essay about some stupid topic."  That sucks.  It really, really sucks.  Luckily I got out before that whole system started to corrode the institution.  I mean, we actually had discussions in class...there was lecture and question and answer.  "What do you think?" "What does this mean?"  "Could you explain your answer?"  You see, that's the kind of stuff we need more off.  Not, "What is this? Correct.  Now tell me this? Incorrect.  Study harder."  What the hell is that?  Just yes or no, abcd or e answers...it ain't right I tell ya.

~Zoo

Zoo:

We, as parents do draw the line.  I would fight anyone who tried to stop me from raising my kids with my standards, religious and political beliefs.  I mean, when my kids were younger, we didn't yell, "last one in the car's a rotten egg", we yelled "last one in the car's a Democrat!".  I don't see a problem with that.:~D

My kids are now at the age where they are going to have their own opinions no matter what we taught them.  None of them are democrats so far, but I can tell you, we have some pretty fun discussions at times... and no, not because we see eye to eye on everything.

I agree with you here.  Schools don't even consider it their job to teach kids how to think anymore...  But they are sure ready and willing to teach them What to think.

You'd be surprised at what years of brainwashing can do to a person.

However, I doubt you went as far as lecturing them every day on what you wanted them to be...aside from a respectable person.

I do admit it gets a little fuzzy in this discussion. What is teaching and what is forcing beliefs?

There's a limit in there somewhere. One just hopes to raise a decent child, but hopefully they don't load them up on crazy ideas...at least without due reason. If I ask a child to explain to me why he or she believes something and can't provide an explanation other than "Well Daddy says" or "Mommy says" then something might be wrong.

I mean feeling some way about something and not knowing why indicates a mental disorder...does it not?



Yeah, I'm starting to see that too...reasoning is thrown by the wayside, I'm not too down with all that. If you think a certain way, at least back it up with some sort of evidence, experience, or something...parroting crap back hardly shows a real thinking individual. I could have the same conversation with someone's taperecorder.

~Zoo

I think, in matters of faith, if what you are hoping for is sincere belief on the part of your child, it is best to give them room to test, study, and grow without too much pressure.

You can grow a life-long "Christian" by having them in the church every time the doors are open and constantly going on and on about YOUR beliefs, but in my experience and observation, it tends to grow a rather shallow, crumbly type of Christian.

I have an acquaintance who fiercely defends her faith and speaks out against things like homosexuality. She has 3 kids by three different fathers, and is currently unemployed because she slept with her boss. When she got in an argument with her neighbor recently she , in front of her children, loudly screeched and called her neighbor a "Mexican CUNT!!".

She is all about Christianity and always on guard against those sinful and wrong atheists.

That is the type of religion that comes from indoctrination. It's not sincere. It's very rigid but at the same time, very shallow and crumbly.

Truly a hero in her faith.

~Zoo