Genesis 4

The Continuation

Published on September 2, 2007 By OckhamsRazor In Humor

And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. Genesis 4:1

Adam knew her. I wonder if someday the Newest Translation Bible will say it how it is. Adam had sex with his wife. Is it so abhorrent a thing? Well, maybe. See the part where eating a fruit makes your genitals something to be ashamed of.

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Ok, I've been trying to wrap my head around this, but I can't. Apparently Cain brought God some fruit he grew. And Abel brought God some stock he had raised. God praised Abel, and not Cain. Why? Poor Cain did his best with what he had. Tsk. And it's not like God was a meat eater and didn't like pears. This was, according to the Bible, about "respect." He didn't respect Cain like he did Abel. For some reason. No reason is given. It seems arbitrary - unless there was a plan....

7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. Genesis 4:7-8

Cain killed his bro because God had more repsect for livestock than he had for fruit. Weird that that's what God gave Adam and Eve to eat in the first place. I guess the whole fruit thing grew old.

9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Genesis 4:9-10

What do you mean "Where is he?" your omnisciecne. Don't YOU know? I stuck a knife in him because you favored him over me for absolutley no good reason. Come on, Dad. You really can't be that ignorant. I appreciate the beauty of the whole creation thing, but please - you're embarassing yourself here.

11And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

And of course, responded to in the typical overreactive way. One sin = screwed for life. Ok, murder is a pretty big deal, and I don't mean to make light of it, but I find corporal punishment far more humanitarian than eternal suffering. I dunno. Maybe it's just me. Just kiill the guy. Don't torture him.

But then get this twist.

13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

So Cain was sorry. "WAAH" sayeth the LORD. You screwed up, dude, and now it's pay time!
And Cain said "Listen Holy guy - all the people (which at this time equals Adam, Eve, and heathen savages *thaks LW* , are going to have my ass over this.
And God said "Oh no they won't. Only *I* can have your ass over this, and I will, but everyone else - if they mess with you, they're mine!" As if somehow they weren't already.

16And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

And that's the end of that.

Most of the rest of chapter 4 is a series of begats which is cool, because it gives a sense of history. But I did find one passage very interesting.

23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.

His wives "plural"? This guy had more than one wife. Good for you, I guess, dude. You're a braver man than I am, but isn't that sort of thing frowned upon?
And what of the rest of it? There's no mention of who he slew. Someone explain this passage to me...I'm curious who got the pointed stick in the neck and why.

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Adam ought to know her pretty well by now. He's been knowing her, probably every day, since he ate that fruit and realized he had a penis. I guess they got over the ashamed of their genitals thing.

There's quite a jump ahead here. After Adam and Eve had Seth, we proceed right to the fact that Seth had Enos. Again - I'm not sure with whom. Not Eve, his Mom, obviously. A heathen savage, maybe? There's no way to know this. Whatever the case, Enos must have done something either really good or really bad if that's when it began that men called upon the name of the LORD.

Chapter 5 is totally a begat chapter, so we're gona skip that one. Chapter 6 is a whole new deal. I'll be back with it in a few days.

Comments (Page 1)

ThinkAloud

on Sep 02, 2007

He didn't respect Cain like he did Abel. For some reason. No reason is given. It seems arbitrary - unless there was a plan

According to some scholars , there was a reason. The offerings were Adam's idea to see who's offer will be accepted by God to decide who marries the prettiest of the two sisters. It was not disrespect or any thing against Cain. both wanted the pretty one. and it was decided that way. Cain did not accept that decision. and the rest is history.

ThinkAloud

on Sep 02, 2007

I appreciate the beauty of the whole creation thing, but please - you're embarassing yourself here

Och, Are you serious in your reading of this or just having fun? if so, then ok. no reason to respond. have fun.

You never said to anyone "what did you do?" in a rhetorical way while you know full well what they did?

Who is embarrassing himself here?

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Sep 02, 2007

I wasn't even going to bother responding Ock, because all I can see here is mockery.

But just to clear it up a bit on the fruit vs the livestock. First of all the answer is right in what you quoted. Look at v3-4 carefully.
You'll see that Cain brought a fruit offering but no mention what kind of a fruit offering. Sounds kind of ordinary doesn't it? Then you see that Abel brought to God , the first of his flock. This means he gave God the best. He didn't give God the damaged goods but the first choice. We don't see that with Cain.

Second, it depends on what type of offering is being considred here. If this was a sin offering, Cain errerd because the only type of sin offering acceptable to God is a blood offering and an animal sacrificed was the only way. Here we see Abel gave not only his best, but quite possibly if it were a sin offering he offered God what God required. Cain did not.

Obviously Cain had a heart condition. Remember the external is just an indication of what's going on on the inside. God could see Cain's black heart. So great was his darkness, he killed his brother.

If you look at v6-7 you'll see God tried talking to him, offering him a second chance. God is a God of second chances.

OckhamsRazor

on Sep 03, 2007

Och, Are you serious in your reading of this or just having fun?

Actually I'm quite serious, but maybe not about what I seem to be. To wit.

According to some scholars , there was a reason. The offerings were Adam's idea to see who's offer will be accepted by God to decide who marries the prettiest of the two sisters. It was not disrespect or any thing against Cain. both wanted the pretty one. and it was decided that way. Cain did not accept that decision. and the rest is history.

Link please. Link me the great scholar that somehow made all that up. And then I want to see his historical evidence of it What I'm pointing out, in a speculative way, is that if someone who is an "authority" can make stuff up with no possible way of having any evidence, then so can I. Anyone can speculate all day long.

Who is embarrassing himself here?

I guess you're implyng that I am, without having the guts to just come out and say it. Typical. But maybe if you took as much time reading into what I say as you take reading meaning into the words I've quoted, you might see something else. You might in your lordly speculative powers notice that this is in "humor" not "religion," but apparently you're only good at speculating stuff that indicates that you're on the right track and that you've done well by God, and that you're righteous. Again, cookie cutter Christian typical.

I wasn't even going to bother responding Ock, because all I can see here is mockery.

I'm sorry you feel that way, KFC. And now everything is all better. Hehe. THAT was a mockery.

But just to clear it up a bit on the fruit vs the livestock. First of all the answer is right in what you quoted. Look at v3-4 carefully.
You'll see that Cain brought a fruit offering but no mention what kind of a fruit offering. Sounds kind of ordinary doesn't it? Then you see that Abel brought to God , the first of his flock. This means he gave God the best. He didn't give God the damaged goods but the first choice. We don't see that with Cain.

Sorry. I see what is written. That Cain brought fruit - no description of quality can be read into it. And that Abel brought the first born. Not the best of his flock. A firstling is a first-born. As far as I know, the fruit was Cain's first fruit, and since it's ok to do so, I'll just say, randomly, with no evidence, that it was.

If you look at v6-7 you'll see God tried talking to him, offering him a second chance. God is a God of second chances.

Um, where? Here? 6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Let's break this down into today's speech. 6 And the Lord said to Cain What's wrong? Why the long face? 7 If you do well, don't you think I'll accept you? And if you DON'T do well, do you still expect me to accept you? (And I'm assuming the last phrase dovetails onto the "If you do well part") And then he'll be envious of you, and you'll be better than he is. What I get out of that is "If you want my favor, you have to be better than he [Abel] his. I'm not going to love you equally just because you both breathe air." So. That what you guys tell *your* kids?

God is a God of second chances.

I'm a man of infinite chances. So here's your second one.

How much of your collective critical thinking has noticed what I set up here? Did you even bother to try to get past the satire? Are you capable? I'm not giving the answer to this one.

Look at the whole biblical account in Genesis 4. Then look at my posting, and look at your replies - "from the outside of it all" if you're able. What do you see? Think parallels. The answer is exactly what I've seen all along.

dharmagrl

on Sep 03, 2007

Are you capable?

I don't think so, no. Not from what I've seen, anyway. KFC considers herself an authority on all things biblical; you can't tell her anything and any interpretation of the bible that isn't her own is wrong. So, I don't think that she's capable of seeing the satire, she's too focused on the wrong-ness of your interpretation.

What do you mean "Where is he?" your omnisciecne. Don't YOU know?

Exactly.

ThinkAloud

on Sep 08, 2007

Link me the great scholar that somehow made all that up. And then I want to see his historical evidence of it

You are a great BS---tter, aren't you? if it is not linked then it is rejected. as if the internet is the only source of information. That figures.

You want to know the source? here it is. Go and study it if you have the slightest amount of desire to learn and discuss serious issues in a serious manner. Here is the Source:

Tafseer AlQurtubi: Chap 6, Pg 134. Now go to a Liberary , get the Book and read. May be you will learn something.

And you also want to see his historical evidence? i see. He provided it but would you believe it? i doubt it.

So here is your position as i see it: No explanation whatsoever is acceptable to you regardless of the source. Even scholars who study these issues for life are not good enough. you still want to see their sources too and the source for their sources and so on. Only your own haphazard understanding is acceptable to your own closed mindset.

I guess you're implyng that I am, without having the guts to just come out and say it. Typical

So that is how you judge things? because i wanted your brain to work a little and admit your own foolishness I have no guts? Now you really are embarrassing your self even more.

but apparently you're only good at speculating stuff that indicates that you're on the right track and that you've done well by God

I didnt speculate, i just told you what the scholars said. as for how well i am doing with God, He only knows. As far as i am concerned, i have not done even the minimum. but that is not any of your or anyone else's concern. is it?

People who have no to ability to respond to a comment they usually switch to personal issues. That is what is typical here.

ThinkAloud

on Sep 08, 2007

Sisters? Their own? Or borne of the heathen, souless mud-people who were created prior to Adam?

According to Alqurtubi, their own twin sisters. Each boy had a twin sister, Adam suggested that each boy marry the sister born with the other. but Able's twin was more beautiful than Cain's. That is when the problem started.

If Qurtubi's explanation is correct it only indicates a fact that we all know full well. Men are so foolish to the point of killing each other for the girl they want.

Souless mud-people? There were people with no souls on earth before Adam? I heard that before but i really dont believe that and didnt see any evidence in any of God's scriptures.

would you care to elaborate on that?

OckhamsRazor

on Sep 08, 2007

People who have no to ability to respond to a comment they usually switch to personal issues.

And here is where that began in this thread, TA.

Who is embarrassing himself here?

Another mirror sold.

LW mentioned you being one of the most condescending people on this site, and I waited to see it for myself. You should understand that I find it difficult to care what you "ThinkAloud," and impossible to feel even a one degree rise in temperature from your flames. Go ahead if you like, but you haven't proven anything about your lordly intelligence to me (which may include a lot of things, but grammar isn't one of them, and don't give me the "grammar nazi" bullshit, either. When all you have to show what you mean is a written word, the quality of that written word does matter.)

because i wanted your brain to work a little and admit your own foolishness I have no guts? Now you really are embarrassing your self even more.

My "own foolishness" is a card I hold close to my chest. We all have some amount of foolishness, I'm sure, but if you think that who I really am matches exactly the persona that writes here in this virtual place, you've made a classical error. Don't sweat it, though, as you're almost universally not alone.

Much of what I write falls into one of three categories. Real life stories and recollections, meaningless drivel, and articles like the one we are here commenting on which are designed for one specific purpose and one purpose only. To reveal people like you to me, and hopefully, if any of them are on the brink of self-discovery, perhaps even to themselves. You fall painfully short of that at this point choosing to project your own deeply buried inadequacies on myself or others in some futile attempt to exalt yourself above what you perceive to be your lessers.

That's fine with me, of course. There are no correct answers to be had here. There are definitely some expected ones, however, and you came through like a champ.

if it is not linked then it is rejected. as if the internet is the only source of information. That figures.

If I were to blog that 2 + 2 = 5, and I coveyed my total certainty of it, would you simply accept it, or would you want to see the underlying logic? I see nothing about two sisters and a debate over who would get to marry the pretty one in anything I wrote or in the Bible. So I simply ask, where do the scholars get this information from? If you do not know, "I don't know" is the correct and perfectly acceptable answer. At least it's honest. By the way, a link to a source does not have to be a link to a source ON the Internet, which someone with your incredible intelligence should know. A link to a book being sold at Barnes&Noble or Amazon would have served just as well. Your claim was never rejected, but I'm not going to just believe whatever you say simply because you say it. Nor will I ask that of you.

ThinkAloud

on Sep 08, 2007

Btw, TA, who was God talking to when he referred to 'us?'

ANYWAY, if one reads the Bible literally, there were plenty of people created before adam and eve, (male and female.) Adam was created singularly, for a specific purpose, and was given the breath of life and a 'living soul.'

Thanks for the tour of the text. But honestly. i dont read it that way. However, i agree completely with you that if you take it literally the whole text sounds odd and confusing. I think you read what i said about that many times. The text includes what God said and also what the writers, and they were many, included on their own either as explanantion of what God said or as an incomplete recollection of what he said. Not only that, the time line in many cases is not clear and that is what your reading of it comes in.

I personally think it is the writers who did not put things in the right sequence not that God created other people before us.

As for whom was God talking to, i am like you get that question in my head many times when reading the Text. may be to the Angels? i realy dont know.

RoyLevosh

on Sep 08, 2007

One sin = screwed for life.

That's certainly been my experience.

ThinkAloud

on Sep 08, 2007

I'm not going to just believe whatever you say simply because you say it. Nor will I ask that of you.

Just a final word to you about this.

I didnt ask you to believe anything. You asked a question and i provided a scholar's opinion based on his research, not a claim of a fact. your responded saying i was speculating then asked for link to support MY speculation which never happened in the first place. not only that, you even ridiculed that scholar saying that he made all that up. that is not the tone of someone who is looking for an understanding of serious issues.

I think you revealed what you are all about. My mistake was that i commented on your post in the first place.

OckhamsRazor

on Sep 09, 2007

I didnt ask you to believe anything.

Ok, I made a bad choice then in assuming that if you were offering up this "twin sister" theory it was because you believed it and felt it was a valid argument. Is that not the case? Why else would you bring it up?

you even ridiculed that scholar saying that he made all that up

Dude. Don't be obtuse. I'm looking through the bible, there aren't any sisters of Cain and Abel in it. If you know what document or documents that this guy is referring to that state these things, just cite them for cryin' out loud. Until you do, I can't get any further in the discussion. All the books in the libraries near me are in Italian. That goes along with being in Italy.

It is not on the reader to prove your claims, in any case. That's on you. If you can't do it when you say it, maybe you should suggest it? If you can, I'm actually very interested. By the way, it apparently has 12 volumes. Which volume?

My mistake was that i commented on your post in the first place.

Yeah, sorry you didn't enjoy your stay here. It's not a place for the faint at heart. That's by design, see? Clever, yeah? Oh, he's gone.

"They must find it difficult...Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority." ~Gerald Massey

OckhamsRazor

on Sep 09, 2007

Try the Koran, babe, TA is a Muslim.

I looked for it in a couple online versions - no luck, but then I was shooting in the dark as to what to search for. Suffice it to say the word "Cain" turned up zero results. Maybe the Qu'ran refers to him as something else - dunno. "Adam" got a few hits, but nothing revealed regarding the subject at hand. *shrug*

In other news, did you get the resend of the Shuteye Town response?

Adventure-Dude

on Sep 10, 2007

Other humans had been created (male and female) during the 6 days of creation, when everything else was made. No mention of a SOUL given to any of them, no personal 'breath of life' bestowed upon them, they were just 'created', seemingly with no more thought or effort than the rest of the animals other than "Hey, it would be cool to make some that look like US." (in our own image.)

Btw, TA, who was God talking to when he referred to 'us?'

ANYWAY, if one reads the Bible literally, there were plenty of people created before adam and eve, (male and female.) Adam was created singularly, for a specific purpose, and was given the breath of life and a 'living soul.'

The logical conclusion, then, would be that those created pre-Adam were not so gifted, and were therefore souless, as animals and plants are souless, and these were the inhabitants of the Land of Nod, where Cain was exiled to.

LW, a Jewish perspective agrees with you here. This is where Lilith comes into the picture. I don't know specifics about all this but thought to suggest it for further study.

OckhamsRazor

on Sep 10, 2007

I did, and true to form, I have ignored my email ever since, hehe.

No worries...just making sure my email wasn't borked since you didn't get it the first time.

Nothing on the search for Qa or Ha beel, by the way. Could be a bad search engine. I should get my own copy.

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