A place where we practice random acts of insight and humor.
Tolerance is the key
Published on April 26, 2008 By OckhamsRazor In Philosophy

On Erathoniel's blog is an article On Evil, and in the comments, cscoles mentions that "Evil is not working together to make the world a better place." to which Erathoniel responds that that is exactly what *he* believes.  But Erathoniel also states in his article that "Evil is any time man walks away from God, the Creator."  Can those two statements exist peacefully side by side?

 

There are many belief systems in our world.  The problem is that many advocates of these belief systems are intolerant of other belief systems, and the most fundamental of them refuse to work with others who believe something different.  Some belief systems suggest that anyone not of their belief system should die.  Some would have governments run based on the principles of their belief system knowing full well that it would be at the expense of groups of people of other belief systems. I propose that this is neither tolerant nor is it "working together."

 

So if you are one who agrees that we all need to work together, what is required?  It seems to me that tolerance of beliefs that are different from our own is necessary for this to occur.  The only other solution I see would be to eradicate anyone that doesn't believe what you believe from the world entirely.  Well...mankind has been trying that last idea since the beginning, hasn't it?  Doesn't seem to be working too well.

 

So here's the problem in a nutshell.  You have a set of beliefs that you think the world should operate by.  Next door to you is someone who has an entirely different set of beliefs that he thinks the world should operate by.  How can you resolve this and "work together?"  In order to work together, common ground must be found.  It's safe to say that you will not find that common ground in the entirety of your respective belief systems.  So the first thing that has to go in order for "all to work together" is the belief systems.  I do not mean stop believing what you believe - I mean suspend it for the purpose of group progress.  I mean be tolerant of other beliefs long enough to make some headway into reducing suffering for all.

 

How do you do that?  Well, in my opinion, it is by placing "objectivity" in a governing place.  Belief is subjective and it's personal.  If either of you holds to your subjective belief as a governing factor for what actions should be taken and what decisions should be made for progress, there will be conflict, and "working together" will be hampered or impossible.  The common ground, therefore, is the set of testable and verifiable things also known as the "objective."

 

This, contrary to religious spin doctors, is the goal of science.  Science wants you to put down your beliefs long enough to make some actual progress.  It doesn't want you to stop believing what you believe.  Science doesn't want anything to do with the "Belief Business."  It just wants us all to find a common objective ground on which we can all agree regardless of belief so that we can "work together to make the world a better place."  I do NOT mean that science asks you to believe a particular set of facts that it discovers.  It wants you to agree to a method for TESTING facts that isn't subjectively based, and if a proposed "fact" isn't testable, then it belongs in the subjective realm - the belief realm - and should not be considered for any actions or decisions that affect everybody.

 

So if you believe that it is "evil" to not work together to make the world a better place, then I ask you, what experiment have you done today?  What evidence, testable and verifiable, on ANY subject have you produced?  What goal do you have in this regard to lessen the suffering of all? 

 

Or do you spend all your time listing things that should not be tolerated and pointing at your doctrine for proof of it?  If you do, then by the above definition, you're "evil."


Comments (Page 1)
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on Apr 26, 2008
I dunno some people got suffering comin' too 'em. Like I told a guy in my care the other day that was a constant bitcher and complainer 'cause everything didn't go to suit him like he thought it should: every morning I roll outta bed at oh-six-hundred, drop down and do my daily morning ritual twenty-five push-ups, shower, have breakfast of eat two scrambled eggs on whole wheat toast with a glass of 1% milk, brush my teeth, get dressed and head out the door just so I can come to work and roll up my sleeves AND GIVE YOU MOTHERFUCKERS HELL.

Anyway, he found out what my belief system was and we've got along (more or less) fine ever since.

on Apr 26, 2008
Very insightful article. I agree that we humans, as a species, have a long way to go with regard to working together for our common good. It could be that we'll never get there, but I hope that's not the case.

Despite our various and sundry belief systems most if not all share some common concepts and ideas that could serve as the basis for the common ground needed to achieve cooperation. I suppose it requires a real and urgent need for that to happen.
on Apr 26, 2008
Some people believe that killing those who don't believe is a good thing.

Others are commanded to love other regardless of what their belief system is.

Which one is held out as more intolerant?

Which one would be able to work together with everyone?

All I'm trying to say is, I'd love to work together for the common good of everyone. But it's my belief, unfortunately, that God knows what is best for everyone and therefore for the common good the only way we can live is God's way - everyone showing love to each other in humility.
on Apr 26, 2008

Another very insightful article Ock,

Intolerance is a big part of us, we learn it early on as soon as we're thrust into social situations such as school when we formed clicks. Later we formed clubs and legends and dressed a certain way so we can be easily recognized by others of like mind.  The ability to truly see things from someone else's perspective is rare, most people have to talk at length with someone they harbor intolerance for before they can begin to put aside their differences. That's why the only cure for intolerance is diversity, it forces us to deal with with our differences.

Intolerance for other beliefs just showed up on the big screen with that lying propaganda movie Expelled. Such intolerance for what they've decided is a competing religion they went as far as to blame the holocaust on it, and people are buying this vile hate speech from Stein.

Link

on Apr 26, 2008

All I'm trying to say is, I'd love to work together for the common good of everyone. But it's my belief, unfortunately, that God knows what is best for everyone and therefore for the common good the only way we can live is God's way - everyone showing love to each other in humility.

 

Your God doesn't have a monopoly on directing loving others in humility, J, so it is unnecessary to draw that line, and in fact, drawing it alienates any group who doesn't believe in your God.  You can think to yourself that they are wrong in their choice of deity, and that should be enough for you.  As long as the work continues amicably, and the progress gets made, both groups are "showing love to each other in humility."  One says it's because it's your God's Way, and the other doesn't, but they're both doing it, and neither is alienated.  This may not be the ideal for a group which is commanded to proselytize their way, but it's the only way that ALL have an equal chance to contribute to the whole.

 

You ask which of those two groups would be able to work with everyone, and the obvious answer is the one that is commanded to love regardless of their belief system, but I know of no such group.  Oh yes... ...I know that some CLAIM that that is their way, don't get me wrong...I know that's what some profess *chuckle*... but I haven't seen any that actually do it.  What I see usually is complete intolerance for any way but one way.

on Apr 26, 2008
What I see usually is complete intolerance for any way but one way.


I used to have a t-shirt that said: WE'LL GET ALONG FINE AS SOON AS YOU REALIZE I'M GOD.

Funny, but I didn't get a lot of cooperation on that.   
on Apr 26, 2008
I can work together with anyone loving other in humility no matter why they're doing it.
on Apr 27, 2008
I can work together with anyone loving other in humility no matter why they're doing it.


No you can't!
on Apr 27, 2008
I can work together with anyone loving other in humility no matter why they're doing it.No you can't!


Obviously, I stand corrected.
on Apr 28, 2008

Obviously, I stand corrected.

 

Even though it was a joke, J, you said in some other reply "We can't go back to seeing things in the way you do, where things are true for one person and not for another. It's true for everyone, which means a lot of you are going to hell."  I notice you fail to include "If we're right about this." 

 

Some of those that are going to hell would be more than happy to "work together to make the world a better place" but they aren't likely to do that with someone that has such disdain for them.  And even if they could swallow the disdain, the "working together" can't really happen.  Because you are BOUND by your beliefs that making the world a better place REALLY means make it a more Christian place.  They, obviously, are not going to agree.  So again, I emphasize that the only place differing groups can actually work together is over non-religious, objectively true, testable, proveable things.  Religion needs to get out of the way of progress.

 

Opinion:  If society lasts another 1000 years, it will be because we were somehow able to do just that.  And at that point, this age will be labeled "The Second Dark Ages."

 

In closing, if your idea of "working together" with someone only works so long as you keep your mouth shut about your belief that they are going to hell for not believing what you believe, (which you can't do because a lie of ommission is still a lie), then maybe you DO stand corrected.

on Apr 28, 2008
The biggest obstacle to everyone working together for the common good is that we still can't agree on what that is.

Opinion: If society lasts another 1000 years, it will be because we were somehow able to do just that. And at that point, this age will be labeled "The Second Dark Ages."

Nah, probably just the "dim" ages, or the "dawn" of reason... that is unless we start executing scientists again.
on Apr 28, 2008
I notice you fail to include "If we're right about this."


It's not an 'if' statement. I will include "We're right about this." That's fine. There's no 'if,' there will never be an 'if.' God shows himself to me in many ways. So why would I bother saying 'if' when the only salvation plan that will ever make sense is written in the Bible and happened?
on Apr 28, 2008
And further, how will that keep anyone from working with me if they are showing love to me in humility?
on Apr 28, 2008
And further, how will that keep anyone from working with me if they are showing love to me in humility?


The knowledge that you think they deserve to burn in hell for all eternity regardless of their nature is probably a turn-off.

Anyway, you can pretend to be humble and kind, but if you really think they deserve to suffer the most horrible torments anyone's mind can imagine then that is going to be picked up by the unbelievers. You can't hide that level of contempt, scorn and pity.
on Apr 28, 2008
The knowledge that you think they deserve to burn in hell for all eternity regardless of their nature is probably a turn-off.


I can't speak for Jythier, but I don't THINK anyone deserves to burn in Hell...I would rather see everyone in Heaven.

What God thinks, though, is another matter entirely.
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