A place where we practice random acts of insight and humor.
Tolerance is the key
Published on April 26, 2008 By OckhamsRazor In Philosophy

On Erathoniel's blog is an article On Evil, and in the comments, cscoles mentions that "Evil is not working together to make the world a better place." to which Erathoniel responds that that is exactly what *he* believes.  But Erathoniel also states in his article that "Evil is any time man walks away from God, the Creator."  Can those two statements exist peacefully side by side?

 

There are many belief systems in our world.  The problem is that many advocates of these belief systems are intolerant of other belief systems, and the most fundamental of them refuse to work with others who believe something different.  Some belief systems suggest that anyone not of their belief system should die.  Some would have governments run based on the principles of their belief system knowing full well that it would be at the expense of groups of people of other belief systems. I propose that this is neither tolerant nor is it "working together."

 

So if you are one who agrees that we all need to work together, what is required?  It seems to me that tolerance of beliefs that are different from our own is necessary for this to occur.  The only other solution I see would be to eradicate anyone that doesn't believe what you believe from the world entirely.  Well...mankind has been trying that last idea since the beginning, hasn't it?  Doesn't seem to be working too well.

 

So here's the problem in a nutshell.  You have a set of beliefs that you think the world should operate by.  Next door to you is someone who has an entirely different set of beliefs that he thinks the world should operate by.  How can you resolve this and "work together?"  In order to work together, common ground must be found.  It's safe to say that you will not find that common ground in the entirety of your respective belief systems.  So the first thing that has to go in order for "all to work together" is the belief systems.  I do not mean stop believing what you believe - I mean suspend it for the purpose of group progress.  I mean be tolerant of other beliefs long enough to make some headway into reducing suffering for all.

 

How do you do that?  Well, in my opinion, it is by placing "objectivity" in a governing place.  Belief is subjective and it's personal.  If either of you holds to your subjective belief as a governing factor for what actions should be taken and what decisions should be made for progress, there will be conflict, and "working together" will be hampered or impossible.  The common ground, therefore, is the set of testable and verifiable things also known as the "objective."

 

This, contrary to religious spin doctors, is the goal of science.  Science wants you to put down your beliefs long enough to make some actual progress.  It doesn't want you to stop believing what you believe.  Science doesn't want anything to do with the "Belief Business."  It just wants us all to find a common objective ground on which we can all agree regardless of belief so that we can "work together to make the world a better place."  I do NOT mean that science asks you to believe a particular set of facts that it discovers.  It wants you to agree to a method for TESTING facts that isn't subjectively based, and if a proposed "fact" isn't testable, then it belongs in the subjective realm - the belief realm - and should not be considered for any actions or decisions that affect everybody.

 

So if you believe that it is "evil" to not work together to make the world a better place, then I ask you, what experiment have you done today?  What evidence, testable and verifiable, on ANY subject have you produced?  What goal do you have in this regard to lessen the suffering of all? 

 

Or do you spend all your time listing things that should not be tolerated and pointing at your doctrine for proof of it?  If you do, then by the above definition, you're "evil."


Comments (Page 3)
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on Apr 30, 2008

If Eve had followed that line of thinking, maybe she wouldn't have eaten that apple, no? Notice she didn't just say "Aw fuck it. He said don't eat it, I'm eating it anyway." Someone had to talk her into it, and instead of using her own rational mind to decide, she fell to persuasion of another (in what seemed to be some really irrational reasoning on the part of the Satan character, in my opinion.) Yet no one takes that as a the lesson of the story, but is it not a valid lesson?

A very inconvenient lesson.

 

on Apr 30, 2008


Can I get an amen?

Perhaps a hallelujah?


I'll give ya both...Amen and a hallelujah!

  

Zoo! How are the finals coming along?


Had an o-chem lab one that was rough. I suck at NMR spectra...well proton spectra anyway. I think I did well enough in the class, though...so I'm not too worried, but I wish they'd hurry up and grade it.

Got 4 finals next week...and tomorrow I'm going to dig into my ACS(American Chemical Society) guide and run through all the lovely organic chemistry stuff. I gotta work some stats studying in over the weekend as well. I don't think it'll be too bad...I just hate all the damn studying.

Ah well, c'est la vie.

I just downloaded my micro final and have to dig into it tomorrow. Bleh! But the semester is officially finished on Monday...but then I start writing my research proposal for my thesis.


Bleh, indeed. Good luck with that. Luckily I don't have any writing to do...unless you count my 4 essays on my economics exam, but they're not that long...like a paragraph each or so.

Just got off the phone with a prof at UCSD who is setting up a proteomics lab. The phone call went really well. Exciting stuff...new lab, building a research program that I'm passioate about, San Diego...


Ooh..proteomics? As in protein study? Heh, you can keep that...I hate learning proteins. Such a bitch to remember.

Congrats, though. Hope that turns out well.   

~Zoo
on Apr 30, 2008
Lucky kids. I still don't have finals until the second week in June . . .
on Apr 30, 2008
Lucky kids. I still don't have finals until the second week in June . . .


Umm...you're in Spain. I think that makes us even.   

~Zoo
on Apr 30, 2008
If Eve had followed that line of thinking, maybe she wouldn't have eaten that apple, no? Notice she didn't just say "Aw fuck it. He said don't eat it, I'm eating it anyway." Someone had to talk her into it, and instead of using her own rational mind to decide, she fell to persuasion of another (in what seemed to be some really irrational reasoning on the part of the Satan character, in my opinion.) Yet no one takes that as a the lesson of the story, but is it not a valid lesson?


The lesson is, do what God commands, regardless of whatever anyone else says. Satan used reason coupled with lies to deceive Eve. Logic is often used to deceive. You can use logic to prove anything, given the right parameters. But if the premise is wrong, the conclusion will be invalid, no matter how much sense each step makes.

Given that God exists, the Bible being a correct translation makes sense. Why would God let a human corrupt His message to the world in writing?

Given that God doesn't exist, the Bible is a mistranslated piece of garbage written by someone to control the population or something like that. I don't know what it would be. But I don't need to think about it because God does exist.

Also note that Eve used her own rational mind to choose between what God said, and what someone else said. Eve's rational mind, when used, told her the fruit was good to eat and was desirable to make one wise (or something like that). All Satan did was point out that there was a choice. The first real choice ever made, and it went really bad.
on May 01, 2008

Also note that Eve used her own rational mind to choose between what God said, and what someone else said.

 

Well for starters, this shows that Eve was not, in fact, "perfectly smart" as I have seen her and her betrothed described.  Given objective experience of THE creator, who would make the same choice, atheist or Christian or otherwise?  Not one person I know.  Eve had objective experience of God.  He was there.  So she never had to have faith.  To choose the word of a snake over a God you had objective evidence of was anything but rational.  It was insane.

 

Why would God let a human corrupt His message to the world in writing?

 

For exactly the same reason he'd let an angel corrupt his entire creation with an apple tree.

on May 01, 2008
Well for starters, this shows that Eve was not, in fact, "perfectly smart" as I have seen her and her betrothed described. Given objective experience of THE creator, who would make the same choice, atheist or Christian or otherwise? Not one person I know. Eve had objective experience of God. He was there. So she never had to have faith. To choose the word of a snake over a God you had objective evidence of was anything but rational. It was insane.


Unless she felt stifled by her ignorance and need to know, in which case the snake offered her an escape from the prison that was Eden, making it a thoroughly rational move. The big mistake many Christians continually make is in assuming that their Old Testament idols actually liked God. Feared and obeyed, sure, but liked? I think we can have some hefty doubts about that one.
on May 01, 2008
The big mistake many Christians continually make is in assuming that their Old Testament idols actually liked God.


Good point. Never said, "And Eve liked God, so they became friends."

Unless she felt stifled by her ignorance and need to know, in which case the snake offered her an escape from the prison that was Eden, making it a thoroughly rational move.


She probably could have just made her concerns known to God if that were the case. But she decided to talk to a snake instead.

As Ock would do,

"God, I want to see the world!"

"What, you don't like Eden, Adam and Eve?"

"Well, Eden's nice and all, but I want to see everything that you've created, not just one garden..."

"But, Eve, there are dinosaurs out there! They have several billion years left to go before they turn into fossil fuels, and you won't want to go out there without a full tank of gas."

"Pleeeeeeease?"

"Oh all right. After all, if a woman would let her 9 year old ride the subway alone in New York City, who am I to keep you locked up in a garden?"
on May 01, 2008

Hahaha.  I am honored and flattered, J

on May 01, 2008
We should write a book and call it "Conversations with God (that we made up)"
on May 01, 2008
They have several billion years left


Millions, actually. Life only began around 3.5 billion years ago...and that was just little anaerobic bacteria. It took awhile for dinosaurs to come along.

Science!

~Zoo
on May 01, 2008
God's time is not our time, Zoo. God's time is not our time.
on May 02, 2008
Unless she felt stifled by her ignorance and need to know, in which case the snake offered her an escape from the prison that was Eden, making it a thoroughly rational move.

Touche'.

Unfortunately, this is exactly one of the main problems I have with religion. This is a parable about not questioning authority, about remaining uneducated and letting others tell you what to do and how to live your life instead of finding out for yourself or using your "free will".
on May 02, 2008

God's time is not our time, Zoo. God's time is not our time.

 

Can't remember which singing comic sang this song, but it always gave me a chuckle.  This is paraphrased - it's been a while.

 

So the man said to God, "What's a million years to you?"

And God said..."A second."

So the man said to God "What's a million dollars to you?"

And God said..."A penny."

So the man said to God "Would you give me a penny?"

And God said "Sure...just a second."

</sidebar>

on May 02, 2008
Can't remember which singing comic sang this song, but it always gave me a chuckle. This is paraphrased - it's been a while.


I love that.
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