If you don't agree with your god's judgement of those who don't agree with it, why do you worship? Is it cowardice that makes you worship a god you think sends the undeserving to eternal torment, or is there some other reason?

I mean, it's nice to say that people have a choice, but if you believe that God's condemnation of the innocent and the guilty alike to hell for not being Christian is right, then I don't see what makes you morally different to those who urge genocide. Likewise if you believe that such moves by God are wrong, then one has to wonder why you worship. Do the fringe benefits outweigh such a being's sickening cruelty?

Anyway, this is all off-topic. The fact is that if you believe that a nonbeliever will suffer eternally, then chances are that's going to come across in your manner and turn people off working with you, if only because if you're a good person you'll probably going to try and convert, which is rarely appreciated.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all, cacto...

What I'm saying is, it isn't about what I think...it's about what God thinks. It's a valid question, though.

I don't "urge" God to do anything, cacto. I have my beliefs, and I share my beliefs in the hopes that others around me understand and believe as well. No, I don't "beat people over the head with it", but I don't mince words when my opinion is solicited.



For the record, I agree with you. That's why I don't buy this "I'd like to buy the world a Coke" malarkey! We are different, we believe differently, and if we can do so without causing harm to others, it's our right. But it doesn't mean we all need to get touchy-feely and have to work together. To coexist is sufficient.

First of all, great post. 

Well said.  I think you've succinctly identified the biggest problem when it comes to multi-faith group dynamics.  It is easy to see past these differences if the individual is prepared to let themselves see past (okay, that was clumsy but I'm sure you understand what I mean). 

Some time ago, I worked in a large open plan office where 60 different people worked.  There were representatives of all the major religions of the world working there, side by side and quite happy to help and guide each other.  The shared common goal was the one thing keeping everything together.  It didn't stop anyone from believing what they wanted and it certainly didn't stop any discussions regarding different beliefs.  But it provided a cohesion that helped us all get along with each other.

Maybe we all need a common goal in order to learn to get along with each other, regardless of our beliefs.

 

 

Out of respect to others who do not believe what you believe, Jay.  When you state "THIS IS SO, NO IF ABOUT IT!" but you can't prove objectively whatever "it" is, it's not endearing.  I don't discount the possibility that what you say is true, but you pre-discount many things as even being possible.  That's not humble, that's humiliating.

 

 

I want to comment on this more, but I don't want to rush those comments, and it's time to go to work.  I shall return!

God thinks, as the Bible states many, many, many, many, many, many times, that everyone deserves Hell. You deserve it, Ock. I deserve it. Gid deserves it. We have all sinned and fallen short. That there is ANY way to be with God for eternity is a testimony to God's amazing grace! And there's nothing you, I, or Gid could do to get there... because it's a gift that God gives to us. It's not about what we do or how we live, it's about Jesus Christ, and that's the beginning and the end of the salvation plan. God has plenty of other plans for our lives, but that's the salvation plan. And any plan based on what we do or how we live will never make nearly as much sense as God wanting to save everyone in the easiest way possible.

What I really want to know is, how does this belief get in the way of working with other groups? They know what I believe, but they know what they believe. They know I'm wrong, I know they're wrong. Besides the killers of infidels, what's to stop us from getting along just fine? Haven't you ever seen Keeping the Faith? Or 7th Heaven? People with different beliefs getting along just fine, right on TV! I could do that too! Why does a belief about the afterlife get in the way of life?

 

It wouldn't if it was left as subjective (aka keep it to yourself).  You, Jythier, DO tend to keep it to yourself.  And you and I have enjoyed some times just kickin back over a chess board.  We tolerate our differences of opinion and set them aside because the goal is a good chess game.

 

Some folks aren't so content with their own beliefs...they need others to cosign them (and of course they'll scream loudly that they don't need any such thing, but then they'll prattle on with their subjective reasoning.)  When any group gets loud enough about wanting others to bend to their will (which of course they say is god's will - as if they really know this), it creeps into politics where it affects everyone, and that's just not right.

 

 

I agree.  Unfortunately, it's hard to get large groups of people (nationwide/worldwide sized) to agree what the goal should be.  It's doubly hard when small groups wish to taint the large group with subjectivism.  But that's my point in a nutshell, isn't it?

 

I am very curious, what was the goal of the 60 people?

Bingo, give the man a cigar (and not one of those cheap, crappy ones either - assuming, of course, you do like a cigar).

But seriously, I see this as one of the biggest problems in the world today.  Faith is, as you said, and as far as I'm concerned, supposed to be personal, private and individual.  Shouting from the pulpits is fine because the audience already believes the message.  In a recent post (here: http://roylevosh.joeuser.com/article/309961/Soap) RoyLevosh quoted Anthony De Mello as saying "My experience is that it's precisely the ones who don't know what to do with this life who are all hot and bothered about what they are going to do with another life".  I think for a man who dedicated his life to religion, this is a particularly profound thing to say.  There is a lesson for all of us in these words.

I was talking with my wife about this last night.  When I mentioned your idea of 'working together' and my common goal comment, she said "oh, you mean something like Global Warming?"  As I said, the problem with this is some believe it and some don't and some don't want to believe it and some don't care.  I was a bit surprised she thought of a negative rather than a positive as an example but the reality is it will probably be something devasting that will bring us all together rather than something positive.

It was a large Revenue service for a public hospital.  I know it doesn't sound glamourous (and it wasn't) but we all worked hard along side each other for long hours.  And we all got on very well.

A little off-topic, I know, but I couldn't resist sharing my favourite De Mello quote: "I'm going to write a book someday and the title will be I'm an Ass, You're an Ass. That's the most liberating, wonderful thing in the world, when you openly admit you're an ass. It's wonderful. When people tell me, "You're wrong." I say, "What can you expect of an ass?"

I would be ecstatic if everyone accepted Jesus. I will work in my relationships to help people towards Him. But I can't MAKE you believe, and you, Ock, don't seem to have any inkling of wanting to believe at all. So, as you said, we can put aside our differences and have some fun - or we could put aside the differences and make the world a better place. Whatever the common goal is, I won't let my beliefs get in the way. After all, if it's a 'common goal' it already is my goal, which means it fits with my beliefs already (or doesn't and I don't care).

I just want to take this statement for a second.

Christians often say something to this effect...accepting Jesus. Is there anyone out there actively rejecting Jesus? I have yet to see campaigns against Jesus...like ever.

If there's anything it's a general "meh" attitude or unbelief...but nothing to the extent of "I DON'T LIKE JESUS ZOMG!!!1"

I think by accept Jesus you mean accept the Christian institution...but of course that's split into a million different denominations...even Christians can't seem to agree among themselves and yet everyone prattles on about accepting Jesus into their lives? That doesn't seem quite right to me. If everyone accepted Jesus and everything he had to say then all Christians would agree and there would be but one church...if it was all as simple as that anyway. All those splits are disagreements between churches...it just seems...a little odd.

~Zoo

No, I mean accept Jesus... the institution isn't going to save you without Jesus. And I see EoIC actively rejecting Jesus, and actively campaigning against Jesus... I also see others actively campaigning against Jesus. Ignoring the gift, or not being sure, is as good as rejecting it.



A lot of the denominational differences are not doctrinal in nature, such as the type of music your worship with or the amount of structure to the service, what is allowed to be said/done during service, etc. A lot of difference are doctrinal, though. I don't know why, honestly. I guess churches are led by humans, which is why we are encouraged to read the Bible and decide for ourselves whether our church is scripturally based or not.

Actually, Jay, Jesus is just fine with me.  I think I could reason with him.  Is he the son of god?  Is there a god for him to be the son of?  In my opinion, the only honest answer is "I don't know for sure."  If having faith means pretending to know for sure something that I absolutely do not, I consider that to be a dishonesty.  That dishonesty is what I reject.

 

And the ONLY motivation I have for suspending uncertainty (aka being intellectually dishonest) and just taking the plunge and believing/accepting anyway is desire for heaven or fear of hell.  Should I die and the pronouncement of my damnation be made and should I be given an opportunity to say a last few words, they'd be "You know, on Earth, it wasn't all about me.  Your adherants said it was all about you, but when asked why it should be all about you, they would talk about your will and your heavenly kingdom and that they were getting to go.  It was all about worshipping you, but they never failed to tack on how the reward was "eternal salvation" for them.  And they'd talk about the awaiting hell fire for those that didn't fall in line.  Again, they did this because they felt they were supposed to according to your word, and once again, that made chances better for eternal salvation for them.  The clear message from them, your messengers, was that I should choose to believe something I couldn't sense with the senses you gave me in order to get something for me.  They all said it was all about you, but their observable words and actions said it was really all about them.  To make this more complex, there were MANY groups with similar ideas, all that had the same weight of "evidence" as their reasoning, and all with promises of a good afterlife or a bad afterlife according to what decisions the people made.  It seemed to be the only method to get anyone to believe anything - motivate them with a bottomless pocket full of gold, or threaten their safety.  My crime?  I sacrificed the gold and the fear until I could substantiate these differing claims with something I could objectively experience.  Like this conversation.  I repeat - it wasn't all about me in life, and it isn't all about me now.  Do what you have to do."

 

That's not really how the conversation would go, of course.  Bound for hell or not, I'd be too excited to find out a lot of things about science and how it all worked.  They'd throw me into hell asking questions.

 

No, not a fan of cigars.  I just put the quote here to direct a comment to your post.  It was outstanding - every word.  I want those quotes on t-shirts and bumper stickers.

 

Zoo:

 

Jay:

 

To me this is (and always has been) a vote of no confidence in what humans tell me.  My problem with reading the bible (or any other book for any other doctrine) for clarification is that I have no evidence to suggest it isn't just more humans telling me something.  If I am to truly believe anything, I therefore must come to that belief without outside influence.  If Eve had followed that line of thinking, maybe she wouldn't have eaten that apple, no?  Notice she didn't just say "Aw fuck it.  He said don't eat it, I'm eating it anyway."  Someone had to talk her into it, and instead of using her own rational mind to decide, she fell to persuasion of another (in what seemed to be some really irrational reasoning on the part of the Satan character, in my opinion.)  Yet no one takes that as a the lesson of the story, but is it not a valid lesson?

Thanks and yes, I want those quotes on a tshirt.  Except I think I'd probably get tired of explaining to some;

a. what the quotes really mean and,

b. these were actually said by a Jesuit Christian.

I'm not trying to argue with you here, Jythier, but I get the impression EoIC (please correct me if I'm wrong) hasn't actually gone after Jesus but more after some of his believers i.e. the overtly one-eyed, narrow-minded types. 

One of the major reasons the U.S. has been able to maintain a free society is the Founding Fathers recognized that everyone won't see eye to eye, and people of like minds usually cluster together.  That was the basis of "community standards" and the U.S. Constitution's 10th Amendment ("The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.).

Community standards holds that, no matter how you want to live, there's a place for you.  If you want God central in your community, then there are places where the people choose that for themselves.  If you want a community where God is rarely mentioned in public, there is a place for you too.  There are even places where you don't have to have a community at all.

That still goes, but it has beem muddled a bit.  People who move from one place to another all to often do all they can to bring where they were to the new place... often without regard to those who have always lived there.  Federal incursion into local and state matters has further eroded the original intent.

So, what we are left with is communities of people who don't talk to each other, or band with people from other communities to force change. 

Some call that "segregation", but if it is done voluntarily, it's really "Freedom of movement" and "association".  Like "censorship", true "segregation" only occurs when the government forces it on the people.

As for what is "evil" and what is "good".  Good is what provides the most individual freedom possible in a community, evil is what impedes it.   Individual freedom is only maintained with the right balance of power between individuals (the people), community (family, neighborhood etc), and government.  If either exert too much "evil" on the others, it is personal freedom that suffers... and the freedom to worship according to the dictates of our conscience (including not worshipping at all) is among the most important parts of personal freedom.

Can I get an amen?

Perhaps a hallelujah?