I love the way the creator of the entire universe finds time and motivation to micromanage.  How thoughtful and devoted of him.

You missed the point, Lula.  Try praying that you get it and see if that helps.

exactly.....man-made. I'm glad you clarified.  I think the Saints in heaven are so enamored with what they are seeing they have forgotten us....completely. 

Prayers to the dead is from the occult.  It's the paganism in the RCC that you are speaking about Lula. 

I notice not once have you backed this stuff up with anything but "we Catholics believe" stuff.  Well let me back this up with scripture to show you how the RCC contradicts scripture.......Sorry Ock....I'll just do one. 

"Who is he that condemns?  It is Christ that died, yes, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us."  Romans 8:34   (I can give you lots more if you want)

Soooooo the question begs to be answered.....if Christ is pleased to intercede on our behalf....why would we pray to dead people???   Aren't you putting others in the place of God himself?  I think so. 

so now you put scripture ......but don't you notice anything strange?  Moses and Job were alive; not dead.  Yes they prayed for their people around them WHILE THEY WERE ALIVE AND BREATHING! Show me in scripture anywhere where we are to pray to dead people........I'll wait. 

I think the point is she's not going to get anywhere if she keeps praying to dead people. 

You are wrong about the Saints in Heaven is wrong. They haven't forgotten those in the church of the saints where praise and song to God is found. Psalm 149: 1. They are right there helping us out as Apoc. 8:3-4 confirms.

The Saints in Heaven haven't completely forgotten us.  "And another angel came and stood before the altar, ....that he should offer of the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar...4 and the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the Saints ascended up before God ....."

Agree ....prayers to the dead is occultish. However, Catholics don't pray TO the dead; they never have and  never will.

Meantime, those who believe in Christ accept both the Old and New Testament as His Word. The duty to pray FOR the dead is inculcated in the OLd and taught again in the New. Christ tells us that there are sins which secure their full remission only after death. That men, far from being able to sin with immunity, will expiate their sins and will not be liberated from their expiation until they pay the last farthing.

St.James tells us that we must pray for one another that we may be saved and that the prayer of the just man avails much. If we can pray for those undergoing trials in this life, we can pray for those undergoing trials by fire in the next after their day of judgement has brought them before the tribunal of God's justice.

You accept the New Testament. Yet there we find St. Paul writing to Timothy offering a prayer for the repose of the soul of his dead friend, Onesiphorus.... "the Lord grant to him to find mercy" he prayed. Onesiphorus was dead and St.Paul was praying FOR him. So, KFC, like St. Paul, Catholics offer prayers to God for peace and rest of their dearly departed souls...it's quite right to do that. It's part of the Communion of Saints that St.Paul taught...we are members of Christ and members therefore of one another, so that if one member suffer anything, all the members suffer with him. This is not limited to this life only, and so we have St.Paul praying for the departed soul of his fellow laborer, Onesiphorus. 

The souls suffereing purification by fire are not dead, they are experiencing part of their eternal life.

Your slam against the Church that Christ commanded you and me and every one else in the world "to hear" is unjustified and petty. 

First, as I have just explained, we Catholics don't pray to dead people. Period. 

After that, you really should take note of the word "also" in Romans 8:34. What does "also" indicate to you?

No, when it comes to praying for others or asking others to pray for us, we Catholics aren't putting others in the place of God Himself.

On intercession, Romans 8:34 is a lesson about the Blessed Trinity as well. Catholics recognize that only Christ can intercede to the Father for us as far as providing continual Grace we need to be acceptable and pleasing to God the Father. Notice v. 27, the Holy Spirit intercedes as well.

Lula posts:

KFC posts:

Again, we Catholics don't pray to dead people however, just as Scripture teaches, we do pray for departed souls....

I know Moses and Job were alive when their intecessory prayers were offered...I was covering all the bases.

But you must have missed my comment about Jeremias...read it..according to Onais, Jeremias was dead ( I'd say he's a saint in Heaven) when he prayed for the people...that, my dear, makes my case.

I recognize that like Luther, most, if not all, Protest--ants reject the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints which includes prayers for the dead. Do you know why? It has something to do with Luther's rejection of the 7 Books from the OT Septuagint Canon. 

Those Jews who believed in Christ back in the days following His death and the early Church was sent out to teach and preach...included the teaching of the OLd Testament book of 2Machabees 12:46 which says, "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins." 

easy........go back to v26-27, just a few verses back.....it's good to always look at the context anyhow. 

".....the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.  And he that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

Sooooo if you're trying to alude that dead people....aka "departed souls" are the also you're wrong.  Like I keep saying Lula scripture interprets scripture.   So between the HS and Jesus, why in the world are you praying to anyone else? 

P.S. Lula...you've given Moses and Job as your examples as "live" people interceding and rightly so...no problem with that.  But can you show me one example anywhere where a dead person (departed soul) is to intercede to God for someone not yet dead?   Where in the bible does it say we are to pray to anyone outside of God or the Holy Spirit?  Alive or dead?

Here, according to Onais, Jeremias was dead (a departed soul...I'd say he's a saint in Heaven) when he prayed to God for the people of Isreal.

Those OT Jews before Christ and those Jews who converted back in the days following Christ's death and the early Church was sent out to teach and preach...included the teaching of the OLd Testament book of 2Machabees 12:46 which says, "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins."

God would not have inspired the Jews to pray for the departed if such prayers were to no avail. Christians have always prayed for the departed souls. All prayer is addressed to the same God Who is as present to the souls of our dear departed as He is to us.

Sincere prayer is never wasted and God hears all of them and answers them in the way He knows best.

Lula posts:

KFC POSTS:

KFC,

 As far as considering v. 27 for context, I've "been there; done that"...but that's another comment of mine that you missed I guess.  Post #65 at the bottom I wrote:

The fellowship that consists in the Communion of Saints is the Church, KFC. The Communion of the Chruch is of Heaven and Earth. At the present time, some of Christ's disciples are pilgrims on earth...the Church militant. Others have died and are being purified ...the Chruch Suffering...while still others are in glory contemplating "in full light God Himself...the Chruch Triumphant.The Saints in Heaven are closely united to Christ, and the Unity of the Holy SPirit by which the Chruch is governed is a common possession by all her members...the CC has one faith, one baptism, one Lord, one Spirit, Eph. 4:4-5. 

As we Catholics continue in Christian communion with one another, praying for one another, and continue to love one another and join in praising the Most Holy Trinity...all of us who form one family; one in the God the Father, in God the Son and in God the Holy Spirit. 

In Apoc. 8:4, St.John says he saw "the prayers of the Saints ascending up before God from the hand of an angel" . Those Saints we Catholics believe are in communion with us and we are in communion with them. I realize, that like Luther before you, you also reject the doctrine of  the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the Communion of Saints".

You failed your own test. I don't need to have a higher IQ than you to have intelligence, and the 'logic' that someone who has say an IQ of 146 can't contribute anything to the topic and should shutup is absurd. Meanwhile your entire premise seems built on the assumption that IQ tests are an accurate gauge of intelligence - in various statistical studies I have seen looking at students performance in exams, for example, IQ scores actually have a fairly low affect on the result with numerous other variables having more of an impact.

KFC posts:

The Catholic religion....."You are Peter, upon this rock I will build My Church".....Jesus Christ 33AD

The Protestant Religion.....You are justified by faith alone....the Bible is the sole rule of faith...Martin Luther 1517AD

thank you, thank you, thank you......you have to go to the Apocrypha to prove your case.  I rest my case.  I asked you to show me using the scriptures that I read Lula, not the scriptures that the RCC honors. 

you've got to be kidding?  Where does it say he's dead?  You've brought this up before as proof text.  Very weak Lula.  See you're doing exactly what I keep saying....you ignore many many scriptures, find a weak one and claim it.  Nothing here says Onesiphorous is dead.  On top of that that has nothing to do with praying to him even if he were dead.  This doesn't even come close to fitting. 

this says...."let the Lord grant to him that he may find mercy of the Lord IN THAT DAY......"

how does this say that Paul is praying to him???????  How does it even say he's dead?  I could say this about you....."let the Lord grant to Lula that she may find mercy of the Lord in that day."  This has nothing to do with praying to dead people. 

so I'm still waiting.  Is this all you've got? 

So that's it.  I've given you lots and this is all you have?  Two very bad examples?  \

out of respect for Ock, I won't do this but I could put up dozens of scripture saying God does not hear certain prayers.  He's not going to respond to prayers that are not made directly to him thru Christ.  Christ taught us how to pray...."Our Father" not to every saint the RCC puts on the rolls.  Not happening.  God will not answer those prayers. 

we've talked about this before....what you just said here is not clear.  You keep bringing up old stuff as tho we've never discussed them before.   One....last....time......

 Saints can be people who are alive.  Remember we agreed on this before?  So these prayers ascending up before God are from people who are believers who are alive.  If they're dead.....they are with him so their prayers are not ascending anymore right? 

I believe in the communion of the Saints as well, but probably diff than you do.  Communion of Saints who are alive, not dead.

You can't show me anywhere where (as RC believe) dead saints are in communion with us who are alive.  Not there.  In fact, it's occultish like I've said.  God said.....do not conjure up the dead in the OT.  Saul, went directly against God in conjuring up the witch of Endor.  So believing this stuff Lula directly contradicts God.  Which is what I keep saying.  The RCC has contradictory things going on in that organization.  Once a dead person moves on, there's more than a great gulf fixed.  Go read Luke 16 and see that   THAT GULF WAS BETWEEN TWO DEAD PEOPLE!!!!    So how can you say there's no gap between us who are alive and those who went on ahead if there was a gulf between one side of eternity to another??? 

A rock is strong, dependable, always there, etc. Perhaps the rock did was a metaphor for faith, not a church.