While I don't agree with KFC's philosophy on life, I don't think it's fair to call her a hypocrite for going to the doctor.  Often, not only do the ones that believe in prayer, etc. go to the doctor, they also go to the church for prayer.  Or the church will go to the person that is in the hospital, by way of a prayer cloth or the minister. 

I suppose this could be turned around... what about those people that turn to some idea of a god, because medicine failed them, and they feel that they have no one else to turn to.  It's an act of desperation, and, by your terms, hypocritical. 

Everyone is hypocritical to a point... so what?

Silver, you have made my point quite well, and for that I thank you.

If it escapes anyone else, I simply am pointing out that in a crisis physical situation, people that put all their money on God don't react as if that is so.  They react as if knowledge is more important.  (Which it is)

If the religious TRULY believed that everything is a part of God's plan, they wouldn't look both ways before crossing a street.  But they do.  Thus, they are hypocrites.  They claim one thing, but their actions tell a completely different story.  Maybe their faith just isn't strong enough?  Or maybe, deep down, they aren't complete abject morons.

not all of them.  I went to a school for christian scientists (even though neither of my parents belive) and the head masters daughter fell over and knocked herself uncoincous on the edge of the pavment and the senior people in the school formed a circle and prayed for her.  They didn't call an doctor. 

Yeaaaah... not sure if that is a good thing or not... Nothing about your post escaped me, it's simply stating the obvious, which has been, (and will be) argued to the nth degree.

A post like this isn't going to cause KFC, or any other believer to "see the light," and everyone else will already understand this point. 

I promise, the argument for this is that God gave us this knowledge so that we could use it to help ourselves.  So when going to the doctor, we are, in a way, taking advantage of God.

Anything and everything can be turned around to be from/of/about/proof of God for those that believe in one, so this post is more of a flame towards KFC than anything else.

God then also gave us the knowledge to use radiometric dating to pursue the age of things (like rocks, for example)  Yes?

Can we take advantage of God to date the universe we live in?

Only if it totals 10,000 years or less according to creationists.

Silver, you don't know me.  And that's cool.  I was here long before almost everyone that is here now - not that I am suggesting that means anything - it doesn't.  I just wanted to give you forewarning that to guess my ideals based simply on what I say here is a fool's errand.  I judge you to be intelligent, so far, so don't fall into the assuming trap.  It won't work out.

I am curious to know what I was assuming?

It's simply that this article is an extension of the other threads in which one's reliance in faith, or science is debated, and you call out KFC for being a hypocrite.

What is the point?  You wont get her to agree with you, nor she you.  So why add another facet in which there will be the ENDLESS arguing over which is better, and why insult her?

As a sidenote... I don't believe in the Christian God, so these statements are moot for me.

First off Ock, I have three sons, all in their 20's.  There have been some medical emergencies along the way.  I always brought them to a doctor.  But I pray for them as well.  I pray on the way and God has answered our prayers.  Everytime.  Now, if one of them died, I would rejoice they were in a better place.  I'd be sad because I'd miss them but I know that we will be reunited someday and it will be for all of eternity.   We all have a date with death and not one of us will escape it.  The clock is ticking for each one of us. 

that's exactly what it is.  I don't speak Ock's language therefore I'm a bad evil, unintelligent moron as well as a hypocrite. 

Silver and Jade spoke well for me.  There's not much to add except for the fact that, Ock, you've been dogging me for quite some time.  Not sure what it is about me that you hate but I have a pretty good idea it's spiritual and not physical.   I really don't hold it against you....like Jesus said, "forgive them they don't know what they do." 

Over the years I've had many non-Christians like you Ock ask me to pray for them when they get into serious trouble.  So do I laugh at them, mocking them and call them a hypocrite?  No, I pray with them because I know they are hurting and they have no where else to go. 

One day Ock, you will be lying on your deathbed.  What will your reaction be?  You don't know but you will have that opportunity.  Will you pray?  Will it be too late? 

It's not hypocritial at all for a Christian to go to a doctor.  Quite often the doctors will pray with us if they are Christian and willing.  I've seen many direct answers to prayer that seemed almost unbelieveable.  In fact, there have been some scientific studies out there that show that prayer does help in medical situations.  Just google it and you'll find some I'm sure. 

God puts many people in our direct path to help us and that includes doctors or anyone in the health profession.  I've seen with my own eyes over the years those who go into medical emergencies with faith and prayer and those who don't.  There's a world of diff in the emotional well being of those involved.   For that fact alone, prayer and faith is worth it over one who has no such belief system. 

I also believe that as a Christain I'm invincible until God decides to take me out.  Until then, if he has work for me to do, I'm not going anywhere. 

You know Ock, I've been on JU for over 3 years and not once have I ever resorted to name calling nor have I ever blogged about another user here on JU even if they flame me (you're not the first).  This really is uncalled for. 

P.S.  I prayed for you today. 

Ironic, since I disagree with you on so many things, haha.

Well Ock, I see you waste no time in making up for lost time. I always find it funny how I am always the last one to find things out. I didn't know you had such "heart felt love" for KFC.

We all need something to believe in. Some believe in God, others believe in Mohammed and then some believe in the all might Budweiser. Is it really wrong to believe in something that makes you happy? Is that not why we have freedom of religion in the US? So long as your beliefs don't interfere with the rest of the people around you, what's the big deal?

As a Catholic, I do have to admit that some believers take their beliefs way too far for my taste. Back in the days when I went to church the Priest spoke the word of God as if I could just get on my knees, pray for a plate of food and bam!, there it was. Of course it would take a person of higher knowledge to understand that this kind of prayer did not necessarily mean that food would just materialize in front of you like a replicator on Star Trek but that it could come from unexpected places such as someone who just happens to have a plate of food and offered it to you or you happen to win a free meal at a local shop or maybe even a truck full of food drove by and some of it's cargo accidentally fell out in front of you. Who knows, I've seen weirder things happen. But it has been always my beliefe that, like sales people, religious people tend to pray on peoples ignorance to get them to believe what ever they want them to believe and even though I believe in God and I was raised as a Catholic, in the end all who preach religion (or don't) are human beings, creatures prone to mistakes by design, who in most cases have the same #1 priority, preservation of self and many of them will abuse even religion to maintain that priority.

I don't care what God you believe in, I don't trust anyone. Trust is earned not given. It's better to be safe than sorry and I will always expect everyone to have some hidden motive on anything and everything they do, regardless if they are well intended.

One thing I have to say Ock is that while in a sense KFC may be hypocritical, hypocricy is like blood, we all have it, it runs thru us, it keeps us going and it usually tends to come out when we get hurt (pun intended). So I have to agree with S&JT that to point to KFC or any religious person as a hypocrit is kinda hypocritical in itself since even those who don't believe in God still have hopes and hopes is not something scientific. I don't think Albert Einstein hoped E=MC2 was correct.

Now KFC, this is one of those things that I tend to get a bit bugged by those who believe in God. Unless you can prove to me without a doubt that any of your sons were to go to Heaven they day they pass away, I don't see how you can sound so sure that they will. I refuse to believe that religion has given you some kind of insider details of your childrens future, abilities to read their minds or to be in more than one place at the same time that you can somehow make it seem as if you children are free from doing anything that could cause them to end up in Hell. Keep in mind I hope it doesn't happen but... Even as we write and read these forums your boys, just like mind and everyone elses (even Sarah Palins daughter did it) could be something something they should or could end up being something we wish would never happen. Regardless what you want to believe, we don't know and we never will until it happens. Usually because they did a good job at hiding or because we purposely ignored the signs.

I would hope that my children will grow up to be good people. I can only hope that my example (the good ones anyways), my words and even my punishments will point them in the right direction. But even I can't say without a doubt that my kids will never do wrong.

When I first came to JU I was hit with plenty of comments related to me not being very specific about what i wrote and how people interpreted my comments. That is why I point this out to you and to anyone who speaks this way. You have the right to believe what you want, but you also have the responsibility that goes with those beliefs. This is just my opinion.

I don't know why I'm saying this, so let me clarify a few things first. KFC and I are pretty much opposites. She and I really just end up agreeing to disagree when it comes to anything regarding religion and/or faith.

However, I have to take her side on the following:

1.

A -- A while back I was in a pretty desparate spot; I had no answers to questions or working solutions to the downward hurtle that I had gone through. I was on the edge of falling and had pretty much cried myself to sleep over the course of the year previous. I don't know why, and I won't begin to surmise why - but I prayed. I asked for three things: Peace/calm, strength, and wisdom. Instantly, whether it was a biological, Godless reaction or divine spirit - I found peace/calm and strength.

B -- Roughly a year and a half ago I was at my sister's house at around 9pm, waiting for my eldest niece and mother to come home as they had an errand to run and I wanted to see how they were doing, etc. I was sitting on the front porch of their place when they pulled along the roa. Barely seconds later, some drunk driver slammed into them - pretty much crushing the vehical. I went to help them and was able to pull both out, though both were critically injured. I laid them on the lawn and ran in to call 911 and then came out with some towels and such to help them. Up to this point I was (thankfully) cool and collected, but seeing them all mangled made me trip out.

Not being a theist, nor a man of prayer - I still prayed. Was I desparate? Sure, I love my family to death. Someway, somehow, I calmed down. A few minutes later the firemen and ambulence showed up along with two city police officers. My niece and mother were loaded into the hospital and I gave my side of what had gone on and such. I then went to the hospital to check in on them and call my sister and other family.

When I got there and looked in on them, it wasn't good. They had life threatening injuries, but...as time went on they got better. The doctors went above and beyond and saved their lives. Was it divine work? I don't know, my skeptic side says no, but...I can't prove or disprove it. (Agnostic)

Then again, I've had prayers that were not answered. In hindsight, with some of them, I can understand why they weren't. For a select few, I'm grateful that they weren't. Whether or not there's something divine involved, maybe it's just pure chance - I don't know. What I do know is that I prayed, and in those two cases - something happened. Who knows what it is; though, it (prayer) certainly calmed me.

So, I have to agree that - setting aside the divine - prayer can be helpful. (How's that for weird, eh KFC? lol - I've agreed with you twice in two days...woah)

Interesting point worth investigating further.

~Alderic

true, but I did find you very objective here and I appreciated that.  Besides, disagreeing and attacking someone are two diff things.   I have no problem agreeing to disagree with someone and still being friendly.  While I love to debate, I don't think it does any good to get hot headed and argumentive. 

well you should try it from a Christian perspective and you'd see just how really helpful and peaceful prayer can be!!!!  I mean if an agnostic turns to pray to a God he's not sure of, how much better it is for someone like me to turn to the God I call Father.   It's like a non-family member, even a stranger, asking a favor in comparison to a loved son/daughter asking for one from his/her dad.

The bible says very clearly that we can know.  Read John's writings for a start.  Start with John 3:16; most people know that one.  But there's much more.  I'm not about to quote scripture on Ock's blog but maybe in the next day or two I'll expand on this further for your consideration. 

Did I say my kids never do wrong?  This statement (and mentality) is coming directly out of your Catholic upbringing. I know it well.    They teach that you can not know if you're saved or not.  Remember I'm a bible believer not a RCC.    I never said a word about my kids not doing wrong.  There's not one of us who hasn't done wrong.   If that was the criteria none of us could enter heaven.  That's the whole point.  We're not going to enter heaven on our own righteousness (right living) but because of the righteousness of Christ.    It's not about good works but about belief.  I mean why did he die if we're working our way in? 

Two of my sons are strong born again believers.  One is on the fence.  If the one that isn't quite there died, I would be in great sorrow for him.  If the other two died there would be a celebration of his life knowing he's in heaven.   All three boys are great kids but there is a diff between the two and the other one when it comes to the spiritual....and it does spill over to the physical.  It has to.  Because who we are inside affects our actions on the outside. 

That's the catch, I can't pray from a Christian perspective because as hard as I try, I cannot just believe the way Christians (any denomination) do.I can, however, attempt to look at things with a new perspectives; however. I suggest you try it to as well. *teases*

Be well, ~Alderic

Remember I once was where you are.  It's like walking back into a dark room after being in the light.  So I'd have to say to you......."I suggest you try it as well."  *back at ya.* 

Oh, I'm finding my light along the path - in the form of a different light. 

Be well, ~Alderic